Here is a Q&A into what we found.
Q. Why is this issue so important?
A. To apply for domestic away games, you have to be a season ticket holder in the automatic cup scheme or an executive member.
A ST costs up to £931 a season and the ACS costs (based on last season) £320 more.
The fewer away tickets available, the less chance STHs have of getting them and, therefore, the less value for money they get on their £1,000-plus combined ST and ACS payment.
Q. What has the general trend been so far this season?
A. We’ve played 12 of 19 league away games. Reds got fewer tickets at five of those compared with last season, plus less for Blackpool than Manchester City got earlier in the season.
Q. Why are allocations falling?
A. We don’t know for sure because the host club, United or the Premier League don’t tell us. Most of the time, noone publishes the allocation until someone (like Redsaway) asks.
Very rarely do we find out why allocations are falling and Sunderland are the only club who have let United fans contribute to a consultation.
Q. Can clubs cut allocations and abide by the rules?
A. Except in special circumstances, clubs must set aside 3,000 seats or 10 per cent of their stadium’s capacity to away fans (whichever is smallest).
So if a club reduces the away allocation from 5,000 to 3,000, that’s fine.
But time and again we see a complete absence of consultation on the issue and, in some cases, blatant greed from host clubs.
Q. What is happening at the moment?
A. United’s next league away game is at Wigan. Last season, United got 4,500 tickets. This season it’s 3,462.
However, a United ticket office spokeswoman said it due to persistent standing, as a United fan hurt his ankle at last season’s match and is suing the Wigan. We don’t know if that’s true. Q. The away end holds 5,418 tickets. So will 1,956 seats be empty? Q. Oh, what’s happened to them, then? Q. How exactly will that solve the problem that cutting the away allocation seeks to solve? But we don’t know where CH customers will be sat. If they are in the away end and stand, that won’t solve the problem. Q. What have United said? Q. What has CH said? “We are official agents for a number of Premier League clubs here in Ireland including both Manchester United and Arsenal. “All our match tickets are contracted from official sources. These contracts are clearly commercially sensitive and confidential and are not open for debate with third parties.” Q. What have Wigan said? Q. Should we be worried for the future? That means less chance of STHs getting away tickets and more tickets ending up in the hands of tour operators. It also means stewards will put more pressure on reds to sit down as there will be fewer of them. Plenty of other teams’ fans persistently stand and don’t suffer allocation cuts. Q. So Also, feel free to tell us what you think by posting a comment or emailing redsaway@hotmail.co.uk
Q. What has it fallen?
A. We don’t know because we’ve asked Wigan’s press office twice and they haven’t had the decency to reply.
A. Some will, but about 1,000 won’t.
A. Wigan have sold them to an Irish travel firm called Celtic Horizons, which is selling them on as part of a travel, hotel and ticket package for £142.24.
A. If CH customers are segregated from the normal away end, they will have to sit down throughout the game to validate Wigan’s (assumed) argument.
A. That noone should be selling tickets in an away end except United.
A. Managing director David Buckley said: “We are a fully licensed and bonded tour operator here in Ireland.
“In the same manner as Thomas Cook provide a service within the UK, we provide a similar service in Ireland.
A. Nothing.
A. Yes. Bolton and Wigan now practise the system above and there is no reason other clubs won’t follow suit.
what can we do?
A. Several things. Generally, tell the Premier League what you think at info@premierleague.com and tell United what you think at tickets@manutd.co.uk and tell United’s fans forum representative at seasonticket.forum@manutd.co.uk
Good work Vitty..
This CH business is a disgrace, taking into account Execs a normal ST holder stands next to no chance of tickets through official channels so any further reduction definately needs looking at
Spurs took away the second tier, sold it to their own fans, then those fans stood for 90 minutes, its a joke! Unless our club take a stand, and fight for their season ticket holders, I can’t see it changing
The only way this can be fixed is to take those people with the power out of the game or insert rules and make all information totally transparent. United, Wigan, another club and the Premier League can do what they like. There is nothing that can be done, unless the higher powers bring them back down. The club etc will say what they like and because the EPL works for them they’ll agree. Other than contacting IMUSA or the Football Federation anything else is a waste of time.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by jamie robertson, Andy Green, Mark Hutton, Andrew Simpson, Chris C and others. Chris C said: RT @barneyrednews: Excellent investigation into Utd's decreasing away allocations by vitty at http://redsaway.com/2011/02/united-away-al … [...]
The solution for all this lies with our own support.
We need more awareness among fans that their actions are leading to reduced allocations. No good away clubs/stewards telling us etc as it doesnt get took in.
Keeping gangways, aisles exits clear is the main issue that leeds to these reductions. If Utd fans co-operated with that, then its a major step.
Fans need to realise that its only a matter of time before we get NO away tickets.
Utd got less tickets at Blackpool away, as home club sold a special 3 game package that included Utd and Spurs games for a reduced price, that meant more tickets sold to home fans.
Wigan have always sold exec packages in the Utd end, its not a new thing.
celtic Horixon had tickets in the upper tier at Bolton both this season and last. With exec packages also sold in the upper tier.
The key now is changing the atitude of “We’ll do what we want2 and have a bit more co-operation before nobody can actually do what they want to do and that is watch Utd away.
CH are also advertising packages for Newcastle away in April
i think their for the home end though
This problem will only change when the value of the away ticket drops. That’ll only happen when United start to slip and the team don’t perform, win games and therefore trophies season after season. When that happens the number of exec season tickets will fall and the tour operator packages you see available won’t have the same demand and therefore be less likely to sell.
Can’t honestly see a change in supporter behaviour changing this myself.
As for blackpool away, United got less tickets because they segregated an entire block of 500 seats between home and away supporters. Usually a full allocation of 2200 was cut to 1600 because of it.
Vitty/ Tufty,
I think it is a mixed bag. Some teams cut our allocations due to behaviour – Tufty is spot on with that – but others do it regardless of that – they can sell the tickets to their own fans and finding an excuse to cut follows on from that fact.
Some of our own fans are disgusting towards each other at times let alone to stewards etc, and it really does not help. But the rules also do not help us either at times.
Oli
It would help if somebody at United actually thought about productively acquiring away tickets from our own touts and then tracing them back to the owners and banning them
Tufty very good points particularly ‘Keeping gangways, aisles exits clear is the main issue that leeds to these reductions. If Utd fans co-operated with that, then its a major step’.
This gives local authourities the ability to influence the away allocation against the 10% of capacity up to to a cap of 3000 which are laid down in Premier league rules.
I believe the club want a good away support and try and get tickets due but they are not helped ‘We’ll do what we want’ mentallity. If they won’t listen to Sir Alex who has appealed to them in the past who will they listen too ?e
I don’t think we can lay the blame with our fans, after all we’re not the only top team who’s fans stand at away grounds are we?
Good work though Vitty.
Paul,
Other fans stand but few cause as many problems with aisles and gangsways. part of the issues is how many grounds don’t have sufficient measures to stop fans with no tickets getting in, I often hear people bragging abut jibbing in. It is then obvious there are not enough spaces for them all and areas that should be clear end up being blocked.
There is also a large number of Reds now turning up in groups of 20 or more and all refusing to be separated, so not even attempting to find seated spaces and just staying put in an aisle.
These things really do not help. Depending on the exact complaint by the home team,United sometimes stick up for us and sometimes don’t, and there are cases where they may have been able to stick up for us had our fans not smashed up refreshment stands, knocked out a steward or done something else that gives the home club the moral high ground. It is a shame that most of the decent away fans we have get shat on as a result of how some behave- and i don’t believe in mass punishment- but we could soemtimes police our own fans a bit better ourselves rather than let idiots get away with idiocy or have some sort of stupid belief that whatever they do is right as they support the same tesam as us.
Oli
Oli
Coincidently, I just spoke to a 65-year-old Bolton fan who happened to get a free ticket for our match v Wigan last year.
He said that, compared to the Bolton away end at Wigan last night, the United away end was “frightening” and he couldn’t understand why people wanted to stand up for 90 minutes.
He also said he saw quite a few lads pull other people down rows with them when they scored and he wasn’t surprised that it lead to injuries.
Realistically we need to put pressure on the club to stop clubs like wigan and bolton selling tickets to third parties. They could put a stop to it tommorrow if they knew that fans in big numbers wanted something done about it and were considering not renewing season tickets. Yes the united fans aint angels we are top of the table for arrests at away games 09/10 which kinda adds weight to why our allocations are dwindling.
Pretty much all away fans stand at grounds but a couple of idiots ruin it for the good ones,that plus the fact that were man utd.
Good article Vitty!
Like others have said both the issues around allocations and actions of some of our fans need sorting out.
I’ve had experience of both. For instance, when CH do not sell out all their allocations the remaining are actually brought back to Manchester and touted to local fans -at times for the same price as a whole package for their usual customers. Surely if they cannot sell all of them, the remaining should be returned to the club and given to those who’ve missed out in 1st ballots? or are the club condoning touting?
Also, as much as I enjoy the unique atmosphere at away games, the actions of a minority can make it a somewhat dangerous experience.
Recently at Southampton, disabled fans were allocated the front row (they can’t stand throughout the whole match) only to find some seats taken by others and a large standing in front of these seats. On asking the stewards to do something about it one of the ‘occupiers’ told an elderly lady “this is what happens at aways”. when Hernandez scored an elderly man forced to stand in this ‘row’ was knocked to the ground and separated from his helper while the lady and the child with her had to be lifted over the the barrier and made to sit on a tiny stool.
When home clubs see things like this, is it any wonder they slash allocations?
Has the club’s fans forum not taken these issues up with United at a meeting already?
The fans forum doesn’t have much representation from away game Reds. There are only a few ST holders on it and one of them, by coincidence only rather than it being a category, is an away loyalty pot member. The fans forum, as well as not having any of our major supporter groups like MUST and IMUSA on since 2005, has a very limited role and certainly has very few people – if any- around the table who can discuss these issues from a good knowledge point. Having sait that, there are people at the club who themselves get it and are on our side too, albeit others who are not.
vitty we didn’t get 4,500 last year at wigan we got 3,976 so it’s a few hundred down again this season.
Nice one Vitty
More info for you. Not sure whether you are aware of this but the larger supporters clubs with over 100 official members(S/Tkts and OneUnited members) receive 2 away ticket if the allocation is over 2500. Not sure how many of them there are these days.
Also know that one of them applied for 26 for Wigan and only one was sucessfull. At those odds its no wonder you don’t get a sniff these days.
As for the behavior of our away fans, leave it out. We are still probably the best away support warts and all and if you lose some of our more unrulely element then it will be a sad day. Aa a bit of a veteran myself these days and it’s more like a kindergarten compared to days gone by.
Dear Sir / Madam
As a season ticket holder with Manchester United it is becoming increasingly apparent that the benefits and value of being a season ticket holder are becoming less and less each season.
I am not talking in respect of the home games which a season ticket entitles me to but to the away games.
My season ticket costs upwards of £600 each season and to be eligible to apply for tickets for United’s away games we must be a member of the Automatic Cup Scheme which the club operates. This adds great cost to the yearly amount we pay, and again I am not complaining about that as I would always attend all the cup games anyway.
My real concern is that Manchester United’s away match ticket allocation is reducing year upon year and that entering a ballot for away tickets is becoming less and less successful.
I have been “lucky” this year and have been successful for two Premier League away games and three European away games, however I know of many supporters who have not been successful for any away games in the Premier League, despite entering the ballot for each one that comes up and meeting all the required criteria.
It has also come to our attention that there are tour operators, such a Celtic Horizons based in Ireland, who are provided with a large section of United’s away ticket allocation in the away end (for the Bolton and Wigan games) and then go on to sell these tickets as part of a travel package to anyone who wishes to go and can pay their prices. This practice not only reduces the allocation for us “real fans” who are paying via our season tickets and the automatic cup scheme for the “privilege” of being able to enter the ballot for away games, but also could result in a security risk as the tickets sold through these such operators are available to anyone and not necessarily United supporters.
When the clubs in question, who are reducing our away allocations and also selling through these operators are taken to task on the issue, they either do not have the courtesy to reply or hide behind the excuse of United supporters “persistent standing” however each and every group of away supporters at every Premier League stadium in the country stand. This is witnessed by the travelling supporters who come to Old Trafford and also when watching other games on the television. So in conclusion the “persistent standing” excuse does not hold much water.
At a time when football is being taken away from many supporters due to increasing prices, and the working man/woman’s game is continually moving more towards a corporate audience, this just seems to be another nail in the coffin for real supporters, like myself, who have followed Manchester United home and away for the last 33 years, through thick and thin.
In summary I would appreciate some feedback on what is going on with these away ticket allocations, how this can be improved to make sure the tickets end up in the hands of the “right” supporters making the cost associated with a season ticket more value for money, if the practice of selling our away tickets through a tour operator is within the rules, and where this is leading in the future, as like I mentioned earlier this is a real concern, not just for me but for each and every one of United’s loyal supporters.
Thank you for taking the time to read this email and I look forward to your responses.
Regards
Dave S, it won’t be a sad day when the idiots who smashed an Asian steward at West ham this season while shouting racial abuse at him are gone. Nor when the idiots who notoriously assaulted a female steward at Charlton are gone. Nor when the fuckwits doing gas chamber hissing noises when we play Spurs are gone either. There is a line, plenty of Reds go way past it, and it pathetic to laugh it off just because they are Reds. It takes a scouse victim mentality to be accepting of all that but then get upset over Munich songs at the same time – if you want moral high ground you have to deserve it. We are better than the bindippers and Leeds, so let’s not condone our own that sink to their level.
The reply from United to the above email:
Thank you for your email.
We understand supporters disappointment and frustrations at being unsuccessful in the ballot, however we can assure you the ballots are completely random. Nothing has changed to the ballot process; other than the European ballots. Our allocation for away games, are split up into percentages for the two Pots; the Loyalty Pot and Standard Pot. We have a number of Season Ticket holders in our Loyalty Pot, which has been in operation since the 2003/04 season.
As with every ballot, we recieve a large amount of applications, usually over 10,000, and with our away allocations sometimes being as low as 1500, once these have been split between the pots, the ballot is drawn at random. All season ticket holders in the Standard Pot have an equal chance of a ticket and no loyalty status is applied.
European away ballots are separate to that of the Domestic ballots, and so the loyalty basis is also kept separate. Loyalty is gained by accruing credits, based on collecting the match ticket and attending the European game. This is a new system applied this season due to supporter feedback.
We are currently investigating Celtic Horizons, as we have not given them any of our allocation. We can not control the allocation given to us by other clubs, and if there are reduce it will still be within the rule and regulations of the FA.
We appreciate all supporters feedback and welcome any further comments on this matter.
Kind Regards,
I’ve only had two away match tickets in three seasons and am now seriously considering giving up my season ticket (I’ve had it for 21 years).
Isn’t it time that the premier league rules are changed (as grounds are much bigger than when the rule was introduced in 1996) so rather than making clubs set aside 3,000 seats or 10 per cent of their stadium’s capacity to away fans (whichever is smallest), it goes up to 3500 seats or 10 per cent of their stadium’s capacity to away fans (whichever is smallest), or even 4000 seats or 10 per cent of their stadium’s capacity to away fans (whichever is smallest). At least this would be give me a fighting chance of a ticket.
But not if we get our allocations reduced below even the premier leagues current rules.
This season we have got 2000 at spurs (should have got a minimum of 3000), 2400 at Villa (should have got a minimum of 3000), 2600 at city (should have got a minimum of 3000), 1800 at Sunderland (should have got a minimum of 3000), 2400 at wolves (should have got a minimum of 2900).
Why isn’t the club fighting back against these clubs? don’t they release that a lot of people only have a season ticket due to the ability to get away tickets, and its also gives the home side more of an advantage having less united fans and more of there own fans at a game (coincidence but we haven’t won any of the above games).
In a dream world away allocations should be determined by how good your home support is. We would be allowed 3 quaters of the groud at Wigan and the pie eaters would sit behind the goal.
Mark,
I agree with everything you say. The issue is that the 20 PL clubs vote on these issues, and only the clubs with huge away support – Utd, Liv, Spurs, everton and Newc are the only main ones that come to mind, possibly City at times) – is not enough to get the 14 votes needed.
The only way it could work is if clubs who don’t sell out (Wigan, Bolton etc) want to sell us more tickets to fill their own ground, but they can do that at present anyway voluntarily so would not want a rule to make them.
The issue is as Tuyfty and others have said above – stewards and police don’t like away fans – especially United’s – and the cost of them having more of us is more to them than the cost of the extra ticket revenue theur receive. That is why we won’t get anywhere while there is still bad behaviour.
Oli
Even if the “we’re man united, we’ll do what we want” attitude was to come to an end (which it most likely never will and probably rightly so) we would still be on the receiving end from other Premier League clubs due to the simple fact that we are Man United and our continued success invites hatred from almost every single club against whom we play.
I agree with a lot of points made here but the best one was from Fred that even if we suddenly began behaving ourselves, we would still be on the receiving end as everyone hates us. The ‘we’ll do what we want’ stuff is all just a counter to that and a bit of a wind up to other clubs fans.
We want more tickets? Stop being so successful on the pitch. Unfortunate situation, but thats the way I see it.
I agree with a lot of points made here but the best one was from Fred that even if we suddenly began behaving ourselves, we would still be on the receiving end as everyone hates us. The ‘we’ll do what we want’ stuff is all just a counter to that and a bit of a wind up to other clubs fans.
We want more tickets? Stop being so successful on the pitch. Unfortunate situation, but thats the way I see it.
[...] Reds Away does not dispute that, but Wigan and United both deny selling tickets to them. [...]