Ahead of next month’s trip to Tottenham, we bring you a Q&A to explain why the actions of four idiots have cost us 1,000 tickets.
Q. What’s the background to this?
United are entitled to 3,000 tickets and other clubs routinely get about 2,900 for this game.
Up until three seasons ago, United fans got that many.
Q. What changed?
Tottenham expressed concern that United fans who stood up throughout the game could fall off the upper tier.
Q. So what happened?
Tottenham cut United’s allocation by about 1,000 (to 1,948) and gave the upper tier to the Spurs fans. Reds were only in the lower tier.
Q. Did it work?
Apparently not. Two season ago, Spurs invited a United rep to watch the game and demonstrated problems, so in the summer of 2011,
Tottenham’s safety advisory group (SAG) recommended that United’s allocation should stay around the same level.
The actual allocation was 1,985.
Q. What happened before that game?
Reds Away and MUST expressed concern that Spurs and its licensing authority, Haringey Council, were making these decisions behind closed doors and appealed to them to be more open and transparent.
Q. Did it work?
Well, relations have improved between the council and United fans’ groups and the council should be applauded for getting fans’ representatives involved in the process.
Q. What happened at the match?
According to Bob McIver, the council’s building control manager who is Tottenham SAG chairman.
“The forthcoming fixture has been discussed by the Safety Advisory Group and it was agreed that due to the relatively good behaviour of the away fans at last seasons fixture together with the increased assistance and cooperation of Manchester United Football Club, to increase the allocation of tickets (although I would advise that the fans behaviour is being monitored at all away fixtures and should this deteriorate then this decision will be looked at again).”
Q. So why was behaviour at the last game regarded to be so much better than the game before?
It’s hard to say, but it’s fair to assume that, because of all the pre-match publicity about the allocation cuts, United fans were much more aware of the need to, for example, not block aisles during the match.
Q. What’s the latest?
Mr McIver wrote that in October. He wrote back this week to update us:
“This issue was further discussed at the informal SAG meeting in October and some concern was raised at reports coming from other grounds where United had played this season, but a formal decision was delayed until November.In November, a special SAG meeting was held to discuss the ticket allocation, at which reports were discussed from other police forces and safety officers from other clubs.
These reports highlighted the fact that the supporters’ behaviour had deteriorated throughout the season to date, with severe problems being reported from recent fixtures.
As a result of these reports, the decision was taken not to increase the ticket allocation and revert to the allocations of the last three seasons (i.e. United will get the lower tier only).”
Q. So how many tickets are United getting?
1,985.
Q. Do we know specifically what these severe problems are at other games?
We know there were no issues at any away games prior to the end of October, and we know there were issues at the two Chelsea away games, one in the league, one in the cup, so it is likely that that those two games were the focus of the SAGs concerns.
Q. What happened at those games?
We’re not sure what was alleged to have happened at the league game, but United officials have confirmed that, at the cup game, there were four specific incidents.
Q. What were they?
A fan ran onto the pitch, another fan threw a bottle on the pitch, another fan lit a flare and another fan let off a smoke bomb.
Q. Do we know for sure that these were the problems the SAG identified?
No, but we will find out on January 17 when Haringey Council responds to a Reds Away request made using the Freedom of Infomation Act.
Q. So what’s the bottom line?
Fans’ groups have worked tirelessly over the last two years to improve relationships with decision makers and we were going to get 1,000 extra tickets as a result of improving relations, the improving flow of information and the improving behaviour of our fans…but the actions of four idiots has sent us back to square one.
Q. What needs to happen for us to get a full allocation at Tottenham next season?
Keep the aisles clear, don’t throw bottles and leave your flares and smoke bombs at home.
I’d love to see the risk assessment for this game. On what basis do they judge that 1000 less Reds will ensure there are no incidents?
Thanks to the 4 concerned. Makes you feel like you are flogging a dead horse Vitty.
floymored – it’s a bit more complex than that:
1. They have evidence that the crowd can be controlled at 1,985.
2. They were going to give us 2,900 due to good behaviour.
3. After more recent bad behaviour, giving us an increase of even one ticket would be sending out a signal that it’s okay to misbehave.
Higgo – it really does, you’re right.
We really need a culture change where flares are concerned, especially considering someone was almot seriously hurt due to a flare at Swansea.
Disappointing news once again. Still not sure what the difference between Spurs fans standing and United fans standing is? I seem to remember an FA Cup match in the past few years at OT when Spurs fans let off flares in the top of K stand. I suppose 2 wrongs don’t make a right!
So 4 prats have cost us 1000 tickets, great looks like i am certain to be chubbed for this one
I can see why they have done it but 1000 tickets ffs.
Quick Question, I apply for away tickets with 3 other STH and have been for a while, A One united Member has asked for me to apply for them with ours, So apply for 5 tickets, Will the fact that they are a member reduce our chance or dosnt it matter? cheers
This is complete bollocks.i don’t condone so called hooligans but do they expect you to sit there and have a clap now and again when they tell you so.for the price of the tickets these days I want to stand and sing and have a get behind the lads( and that doesn’t include chucking stuff!)
It’d help if our club made it obvious why we get these reductions instead of learning through Vitty. If culture is to change the message needs to be loud and clear from the top what won’t be tolerated. Letters were sent out for certain games (Liverpool) and that worked.
It must be demoralising at times for Vitty (and co) but keep up the good, it is appreciated.
Luke, I agree with you but letters are often to make the home club happy rather than to actually create change. Does the average moron looking to stick two fingers up at authority and lob a flare not do it because David Gill says so?! I agree with the letters but in reality the only things that enact change are a) risk of severe punishment/ bans and b) fans self policing and making a idiot feel like they’d be an idiot not a hero for lobbing a flare.
The problem with the self policing oil tho is the clown with the flare or whatever is likely to be with a group which could lead to more aggro if you were to challenge them about it..
Bri, whatvyouvsaid you want to do at an away is perfectly acceptable. It’s the chucking stuff and running on the pitch etc which is a no no. Incidentally the knob who ran on the pitch at Chelsea came onto the pitch right next to us. He tripped climbing over the seats and landed flat on his face on the advertising boards, which if it’s any consolation must have hurt.
Stewart – you make a good point, but a positive example of a culture change is over sensitive chanting at Anfield.
MUST/IMUSA/FSF etc lead a brilliant campaign to ensure we didn’t get a bad name at that match and it worked – even though there was a risk of a small group of idiots swimming against the tide.
Bri – We don’t expect fans just to sit down and clap, but we do expect them not to bring explosives to away games and to throw them at people.
I guarantee that no red would bring a flare to a game if they knew there was an absolute 100-per-cent link between the flare and a 1k allocation cut.
Oli, I completely agree that they are often not read, and when they are read it is by those who probably wouldn’t misbehave anyway. My point is everyone to a man moans we get these reduced allocations but very few people actually know specifically why. Most people still think it’s solely for persistent standing. If specific reasons were outlined by the club word would soon get around and I’m sure even the idiots would behave more responsibly. How can you ask people to ’self police’ if they’re in the dark themselves? Obviously, it’s common sense to most on this forum what is acceptable but I think if it was outlined to the idiots what hoops we have to jump through to get our tickets back they would.
Agree Luke,maybe the handing out of leaflets at a couple of aways by must or imusa detailing the problems would help?
Or even the website. Most reds have to check the website at some point to apply for tickets. That’d be a start.
Some good comments. Luke, I agree leaflets etc have a role.
Education is key as too many people still like to believe it is a conspiracy against United or that it is just about standing. Look at Bri’s post on this thread, it shows how many just don’t get it. Still.
The other thing to mention is that, even when it is not about behaviour, it can be about aisle and exit blocking. I don’t know why people feel so determined to stand on steps when there are enough seats, but that is a big issue for some clubs (namely Liverpool and Villa). They’re not having a go about standing all, just people standing in aisles.
Stewart, totally understand what you’re saying but most people won’t knock you out for politely speaking to them. At worst you’ll be ignored. Part of why loads of racist abuse stopped was because people realised it just wasn’t acceptable anymore in a crowd. That comes from sensing the mood of a crowd. I’ve said to people before ‘lads you might not want to stay in that aisle, last year they kicked people out blocking the gangways’ and they’ve moved saying thanks to me for being helpful. Harder when it is about flares etc I guess. But of 3k people someone should take the lead and speak up, and of they have the backing of most others it won’t be an issue.
I don’t get the flare thing anymore? Yeah I think in a big crowd it can stand out and looks relatively impressive even if it is just a bright shining light, but when you know you will lose a thousand tickets then take to twitter to complain about being chubbed for every away? Saying that, most people from twitter that you know act like bellends manage to get tickets to every away nearly? Lord knows. Flares are one thing but fireworks are an incredibly stupid idea.
Off topic sunderland are clamping down on home fans standing they banned 38 st holders yesterday for standing
What are the prices for spurs ? All categories ?
A few things on the Sunderland issue:
They created a singing section and then expressed surprise when the singers wanted to stand. What planet are they living on?
Mind you, it’s the same group of people who said United had a bigger rivalry with Sunderland then Newcastke did.
Second, Sunderland are battling a media shitstorm because they’ve put signs on the seats of persistent standers who have had their season tickets taken off them. The signs advertise to other fans why they’ve had their season ticket confiscated.
All the papers have picked it up and Sunderland look stupid.
Third, we are bound to suffer an allocation cut at Sunderland this season as the new away end is high up. They’ll take the first four rows from us.
Tufty – they gave us an increase last season and behaviour was regarded as good. I’m not sure why you asked that question.
What a strange thing to say.
Vitty,
United basically took a decision that last season’s fixture at Sunderland was so important that they should do whatever it took to get more than 1000 tickets, and not worry about long term impact.
As such, they did manage to get more tickets for the final day, but it included absolute concrete guarantees that our fans would sit down.
At Sunderland it traditionally IS about standing rather than just aisle blocking/ flares etc, and we did all stand. Their safety offices is obsessed with standing, hence recent treatment of home fans.
I think we will be lucky to get a thousand there this season.
Oli
How come they moan at the staidum of light fans standing at football yet they use the stadium as a concert venue where’s there more people there in the stands and on the pitch dancing up and down
Different rules for concerts, same as rugby league.
Oli – informal feedback I’ve had is that Sunderland were happy with how it went last season…mainly because they got their moment in the spotlight.
But the new stand means new rules, so who knows?
sunderland……….you’ve gotta laugh!.pathetic
Ballot results for Spurs now starting to appear
Yeah, got ours in the LP.
Looking for 2.
I haven’t got and I’m not even going to bother trying for this one. Normally a very difficult ticket
Got 2 return train tickets for spurs, piiccadily to euston if anyone needs em, £60 for em both.
My mate just got two in the standard pot.
0/2. Sigh.
[...] results came out on Monday December 31 and all have been sold. Read here for some background as to why United have again got a reduced [...]
3/3 what a disgrace
chubbed but sorted as per usual
Expecting chubbing , chubbed
All loyalty pot, no execs and 1 standard.
Have to ask the usual sources.