United would have got 2,600 tickets for Sunday’s trip to Spurs but for poor fan behaviour, new documents have revealed.
Last season, United got 1,800 tickets at White Hart Lane, all in the lower tier.
United and its fans’ groups had been working with Spurs and Haringey Council – the licensing authority – to improve that.
In June, council bosses said reds’ behaviour was good at the match and they planned to increase the allocation for this season’s game to 2,600.
Of those, 1,800 would be in the lower tier and the other 800 would have been in the upper tier, with the first four rows of the upper tier netted off.
But the increase was on the condition that reds behaved well at away games earlier on this season.
Using the Freedom of Information Act, Reds Away has now obtained documents showing what has gone wrong since June.
Minutes of a meeting of Tottenham’s safety advisory group held at White Hart Lane on October 17 show the council were willing to give United the extra tickets if United “send up to 12 stewards to assist Tottenham stewards, provide a letter to supporters reminding them of their behaviour and provide assistance in how the front rows of the upper tier are sold).”
It is possible the last point refers to selling the lower rows of the upper tier to loyalty pot members.
The council’s building control manager Bob McIver said: “The fans are being monitored on their travels and, from what we can see, behaviour hasn’t really changed.”
Tottenham’s safety manager Sue Tilling said: “The various safety officer reports will be monitored between now and December in order to review the United fans’ behaviour.
“In addition, the police will also be talking to their colleagues around the country.”
The SAG held a special meeting on November 20 to again discuss the issue.
Mr McIver said: “Manchester United fans’ behaviour has not been the best, looking at safety officer reports.
“United have sent a letter with suggestions of ways to help Tottenham (deal with fans), but this letter is around ticket distribution.
“Tottenham are not looking to increase the allocation as the letter does not offer any suggestions of assistance with their fans’ behaviour.”
Police reports from United’s trips to Chelsea in the league and the cup and against Newcastle in the league were described as “not favourable.”
PC Simon Wilmott of the Met Police said: “Greater Manchester Police have written to the Metropolitan Police informing them that United fans had been causing problems.”
Ms Tilling read an email from the Norwich safety officer “lining out the problems he had with United fans on their recent visit.”
The minutes added: “The group also discussed the issues seen at United’s two recent televised games at Chelsea where there were flares, pitch encroachment, bottles thrown onto the pitch and standing in upper tiers.”
Mr McIver added; “It is unrealistic to increase the allocation given the facts before us.”
PC Wilmott suggested the idea that United stewards be used at the match.
Ms Tilling said: “I am happy with this but the stewards who come to assist must be willing to work with us.”
Reds Away editor Dale Haslam said: “I would like to thank Haringey Council for releasing this information. Perhaps their counterparts at Newham Council should take note.
“By releasing this information, we can get an understanding of why our allocation has not been increased.
“For the first time, we have learned that safety officials will penalise fans if their behaviour at other grounds is bad, even if it is okay at their ground.
“Knowing this presents our fans with a choice, which links behaviour at one game with the chances of getting a ticket at another.”
I wonder if the flares the scousers set off last Sunday will be taken into account when looking at their allocation next time they play at OT &, based on Harringay’s stance, any other grounds thay visit.
Oh no I forgot they are all innocent of any wrong doing whatsoever cos the Bishop of liverpoo, Cilla Black, Jimmy Tarbuck & Ken Dodd said so.
Tufty raises some fair points. Unfortunately, it is the minority affecting our allocations.
Tufty, you raise some fair points but we have to be careful not to be too critical of the authorities by making arguments that won’t wash.
Flares, pitch encroachment and throwing things on the pitch are unacceptable and whether it’s one person doing it or not, decision-making authorities will always be able to justify cutting our allocation because of it.
We need to simply get the message out to our fans that if we, as a collective, allow our fans to do something, there will be consequences.
I don’t want to go a step further in lecturing our fans – it ultimately has to be up to the majority to make a decision on how they want to be treated.
As for the mention of standing at Chelsea, you’re right, other clubs do it, but I think that aspect was covering the particular point of the danger of people standing at the front of the stand and the risk of falling off it.
Spurs/Haringey would have been happy to let us have the upper tier, so long as the first four rows were cordoned off and, presumably, the next couple of rows after that were given only to LP people.
I share your concern about GMP and IMUSA will probably approach them about ths.
Tickets fall into the wrong hands every away game. As an away fan they surely are meant to be searched. Many teams away from home stand. Are other team constantly getting there allocations cut
Can I ask that noone comments on the particulars of the Swansea issue.
Should anyone be charged in relation to any alleged offence, we could be in contempt of court if any views are expressed relating to the guilt or otherwise of any invidiual.
I heard iin some articles that the chelsea league match, they are using as an excuse in reduction of allocations. Any actual news on what happened there?
Greater searches, when i went into chelsea league match, i got searched by 6 stewards before getting thru turnstiles, what greater searches can possibly be done?
do we know of any other clubs that get there allocations cut? its not often u see the away fans sat down at any football game in the country. good point RSW i doubt it.
Russ
There were indeed about six search checks at Chelsea but I walked through all of them without being pulled for a search!
It’s be very cynical to suggest they will look for any excuse to cut our allocation in order to sell to their own fans, wouldn’t it?
What I find hard to accept is 4 incidents (chelsea this season) results in our clubs reduction in allocation. Take a gig for example, if 4 idiots get arrested they get dealt with and end of, you don’t see the authorities banning a section of the crowd because of it. I think 4 incidents out of a crowd of 6,000 is quite good.
Why penalise the majority because of the minority? Call me paranoid but I do think our reputation comes first and everyone in authority will have a football team they support with their own opinions. I heard a police spokesman on tv slating our away support once after Stoke on boxing day a few years back, he mentioned that our fans are like the football team in that they get away with anything! That’s a personal comment and not one the authorities should be making
I don’t want to defend some of the decision making but some of the comments here miss the point a little.
Tony, I agree some clubs definitely focus on us when they choose which clubs to shaft. But others cut our allocation and then don’t sell those seats, so they actually lose money. A few examples of that are West Ham last week who left 2k empty in the corners, and other clubs like Sunderland who cut ours even when the home end is half empty anyway. But yes, I think some others are more cynical. In terms of Spurs, while they get more tickets to sell to home fans, they also relocate more ST holders in the lower tier to give us more seats (which partly compensates for losing upper) and really angers those home fans affected.
Salford Kenny, very very few clubs cut our allocation because of standing. Sunderland do, and spurs say it is part of the reason. That’s it. For others it is about blocking aisle and exits etc and fans need to asps top doing it. so many pile in and just stand in aisles, and there is no need. If people stand where there are seats it helps us a lot.
I agree Lakey.
Few other walks of life where collective punishment is acceptable.
But football fans are just as bad, we talk about ‘the scousers’ etc like they’re all one person very often, amd everyone from authorities to fans need to realise acting on that type of view is pathetic.
Question. If we got drawn to play Spurs away in League or FA Cup, we would be entitled to the 15% allocation. What would they do then?
That should say League Cup, sorry.
danny, same thing at west ham in cup entitled to so many but we didnt end up with it. so really means fuck all what we are entitled to
Spurs should be ashamed of themselves , organisation outside the ground is a joke leading to crushing and united fans being taunted in a queue by passing Spurs fans
We have 1900 tickets and there are toilets for 30 !!!!
Well done Spurs
Good on you Tufty, because that was a disgrace yesterday.
how are we supposed to get the full allocation back when we have the problems we had yesterday re getting into the ground. ultimatly they will blame the fans for the crushing, yet there wasnt any ticket checks and searches when being let through, so why put a block in way of the fans. Also the met police didnt help when they decided to stick the horses in front of the blockade. i had a incident getting to my seat, not only did we have have ticket checks to make sure we was going into the correct block but the stewards at the top of the stairs didnt have a clue where my seat was allocated. Priceless but still we will get the blame.
Those are all fair points about what Spurs got wrong.
Now on our side, why on earth do we have scumbags singing ‘what we like most is gassing the Jews’ at a football match? I didn’t hear it myself (presumably as the majority kept to a song about City), but enough people told me at half time/ have messaged me today about it. I assume it was only a few idiots, but if any steward heard that, then that goes against us on the behaviour front too. Not to mention that it is fucking disgusting and the idiots doing it may have well just turned up in West Ham kits.
Wayne and Tufty – dozens of reds have reported similar things to the FSF and IMUSA.
I would encourage you to do the same.
If a deluge of fans complain, the evidence becomes stronger.
Heard from a few mates who went that it was the worst united end in ages full of people who they’d never seen before and idiots who kept standing in the aisle. I say it time and time again that united aways are going downhill
Oli, I was there yesterday and it was not just a few idiots singing about gassing Jews. It was a minority but a significant minority. Similarly allocations are not reduced solely on the behaviour of a handful of idiots. At every away game a minority of fans behave badly – standing in aisles, abusing stewards, etc etc.
The crushing was terrible yesterday. We had a 14 year old lad with us and he was crushed against the wall, was very difficult to keep him safe in that situation. They even checked our tickets going back to our seats at half time.
How they can get 1800 fans in such a mess is crazy.
Did not hear any anti-jew chants myself