United will get just 1,992 tickets for the still-to-be-arranged trip to West Ham, Reds Away can reveal.
The figure was revealed in documents Newham Council made available to Reds Away after a long-running legal battle.
The papers show the council-run safety advisory group (SAG) made the decision on the league game allocation last October.
Minutes from the SAG’s October 10 meeting quoted Lou Elliston, who is the London area’s inspector of the Sports Ground Sports Authority, which advises SAGs on stadium safety.
She said United fans would be in the North Stand lower tier and added: “Gangways must remain clear at all times.”
She said that at the 2010/11 league game ”there was a reduced allocation (from the entitlement of 3,000 to 2,200) and there were still problems.
She added: “Damage was caused on the concourse and a female employee from the catering staff was punched in the face.”
To stop fans blocking the aisles, Ms Elliston confirmed two columns of seats from each block would not be sold.
She added: “It is probable the fans will misbehave and cause serious issues on the concourse and the numbers should be reduced to 2,000.
“The concourse is very narrow and dense.”
Newham Council licensing officer David Grant agreed with her, as did at least one other person at the meeting.
It was confirmed at the February 20 meeting that the precise figure was first thought to be 2,037 but was actually 1,992 once the requested restrictions were apply to the seating plan of the away end.
The minutes do not cover any discussions relating to how the 1,992 figure was arrived at, as the requested restrictions would only remove a few hundred seats from sale, not 1,000..
It is possible the SAG members arrived at this figure as they are confident that they can safely accommodate 1,992 in the concourse area and clampdown on persistent standing.
But there was no specific reference to this.
At a December 14 meeting, Superintendent Craig Haslam said, in reference to the forthcoming FA Cup game between West Ham and United: “No intelligence has been received to suggest that there will be any disorder.”
The documents also reveal that, for the FA Cup game, United got 4,488 ticket – around the amount other sources had said at the time.
West Ham made preparations for United to challenge the decision.
The club’s operations director Ben Illingworth said: “If (United) complain and go to the Football Association, it will come back to the SAG, who will explain that the decision has been made.”
Reds Away editor Dale Haslam said: “Now Newham Council has released these minutes, MUST and others can try to understand some of the safety issues the SAG members have identified.
“If fans do not block aisles and do not overcrowd the concourse then that would demonstrate fans are willing to improve safety in the eyes of the SAG and, in theory, the allocation could be increased.
“The one remaining concern is that the minutes do not detail any in-depth discussion of the safety concerns, which is disappointing given that reds have been denied more than 1,000 tickets.
“It is also disappointing that comments were made at one of the meetings predicting the likely behaviour of our fans based on no evidence whatsoever.”
Brilliant!
Those dick heads who lob beer and plastic bottles around in the concourse before the game and at half time and cause damage and the prick who punched a female employee whould be well pleased with themselves.
looks like another chubbing then, really wanted to go this game so i’ve bought two general sale tickets in west ham section. Fed up with continually missing out, just have to keep quiet if we score
(
Any word on ballot ? They can run it now and send out tickets when game is but let people know FFS
Shocking allocation , from 3k entitlement cut by over a third, agree with higgo on his comments .
Spot on Higgo mate, especially the twat who punched a female employee, bet hes not been banned or nowt and will probably be a jammy bastard who always is successful in the ballet. Well annoys me!
Whoever punched the female employee should be banned from football!! That would certainly send out a message…
Hampshire – totally agreed.
My only reservation is that, while there is CCTV in the concourse, the police made no attempt to put out an appeal to catch the person responsible.
Therefore, there is no evidence that has been made available to suggest it actually happened.
I’m not saying it didn’t, but the tone of these meetings and reports is very anecdotal at times.
My view is that it’s part our fault, part the stadium and part the decision makers.
On our side: No excuse for gangway blocking and it’s easily solved with the right publicity.
On the ground: West Ham admit that it’s in need of major refurbishment and that the concourse is narrow and dense.
Again, they can take measures to ensure the flow of people is alright in the concourse – and let’s face it, if it can cope with 3.3k for City and Liverpool, it can cope with 3,000 of our fans.
On the decision makers: Their view is ‘we have a problem, let’s just pick a figure out of thin air…afterall, noone in the room is here to represent United fans.’
What they really should be doing is showing clearly the following
a) identify problem
b) identify specific solution for that problem
So
a) gangway blocking
b) don’t sell end-column seats.
Unfortunately, at practically every away game I have attended the gangways have been blocked. The people who block these gangways have no intention of moving. I don’t think this problem will be solved, unless the stewards or police start enforcing the requirement to keep the gangways clear. Until then, the rest of us will have to suffer the consequences of the actions of a few.
As others have stated – agree with Higgo on this one.
As Vitty says, the ground isn’t ideal so a major factor for concourse. I’m sure United fans are no worse than others just seems that we get penalised more than others (although I haven’t stats to confirm this as I don’t be paying attention to other clubs allocations etc).
Needless to say currently waiting on the “sorry you have been unsuccessful” mail to arrive.
Totally agree with vitty gangway blocking can be attributed to us, but I carn’t understand how they can use the density of the concourse against us, disruption yes but not density. As for a female staff member getting punched in the face this is the first I’ve heard of it but if this did happen its shocking, does anybody know which game it happened at? I feel like we are stuck in a bit of a rut here with allocations, if we go to other forms of media to express our opinions we would just be classed as moaning united fans. Is there any reports of other fans causing similar problems, because I’m sure it’s not just us?
Interesting that our allocation has been cut from ‘last season’, west ham were in the championship last season.
i herd utd are getting charged for the removal of the barlow stickers..etc…this cant help..
Ballot not being done until date has been arranged is what i was told by ticket office earlier. Then again probably get a different response if i phone again!
This is all rather depressing, especially since many of the problems raised here are avoidable. Yes the Ken Barlow thing is a laugh, but why anyone would want to plaster stickers all over an away end, pubs and public transport is beyond me. While the work of Vitty etc in compaining for greater transparency on how these issues are decided and enforced is admirable, until behaviour among fans improves I think it’s going to be difficult to put a stop of reduced allocations. As for someone allegedly hitting a steward, need I say any more. People say how much our away support has declined in recent times, surely it’s only going to get worse with constant cuts to allocations.
I agree that at times it seems like one rule for united fans and another for everyone else, but we don’t always help ourselves.
I bet they won’t be giving us under 2000 in there new stadium when they need to fill it it to make money
It might to say 2011…apolgies
Pedro – stewarding techniques alone don’t work: education is the key: When we were able to get the message to those going to the last three games to Anfield that no blockages = more tickets, there were no blocks…same with Everton this season.
When’s the ballot ?
Nick, that’s an ignorant comment.
Bolton, Sunderland, Boro and plenty of other clubs cut our allocations when their home ends cannot sell out anyway. This has nothing to do with West Ham’s ability to sell tickets in this or any future stadium. the council not the football club had recommended the allocation. That council does not make money from United fans or home fans directly either way.
There are a lot of sensible comments on this thread about the need to take some responsibility but that post deciding it is all an anti United conspiracy shows lack of understanding about the issues.
Vitty
So do people think they can block the gangways at grounds other than Anfield and Goodison without affecting our future allocations? I agree that education should help but surely common sense is the key?
Gangway blocking is a funny one. At liverpool away this season when Van Persie took his penalty everyone was stood on the steps. He scored and people remained there until the final whistle. But prior to that we had the gangway cleared for 75 minutes or so. How do these groups assess that, do they see it as bad that its clogged up for 15 mins or clear for 75.
DT,
My guess is that the Liverpool issue you describe won’t affect us.
Liverpool were pretty quick to mark down our allocation last season to 1900 and aisle blocking was a key reason. However, they were also willing to work with MUFC fan groups (and MuFC) to find solutions. Working together, they were satisfied that aisles could be kept clear when a) the stewarding was done correctly and b) the back few rows with restricted view that encourage migration to aisles were not sold.
As a result of working together, they more or less restored our allocation. They know that with proper stewarding aisles stayed clear. I think they’d have to accept that when people migrated for 15 mins after RvP pen, stewards left it alone and didnt use the methods they now know work to solve it, therefore, how can they blame fans for it?
I’m short, I don’t see that counting against us. Other clubs who have engaged less with fans groups than Liverpool may not handle things so rationally though.
Oli
Who onn earth punches a woman in the face?!? Stop the world, I wanna get off….
West Ham fan here – with interest in issue of persistent standing.
I think you have been harshly treated here although by insisting on standing in the aisles United fans have brought some reduction in allocation on themselves. Other fans (including us) always stand but tend to keep aisles free. A 10% reduction would allow the end seats on each row to be left unsold – as Liverpool did when you played there – and that would seem to be a reasonable reduction
Club may say the ground is in need of refurbishment but three sides (including away end) are less than 20 years old. It suits West Ham to say that as they want to move to the Olympic Stadium – even if many fans don’t. And no doubt you’ll then be welcome in lagre numbers to help fill the ground.
Pedro – it’s not as simple as that. The process usually goes 1. Authorities identify problem 2. A mix of people identify a solution 3. Fans’ groups educate fans.
That hasn’t happened before at West Ham so we’re still between 2 and 3. I fully expect us to be able to communicate to fans what they need to do if they want an allocation rise.
Putting it crudely, all fans know the rules but some will only follow them once the clear link between obeying a particular rule and a reward has been pointing out to them.
it’s a joke.
good on all who fight this through the proper channels but for me it’s just getting worse and worse.
reading the huddersfield v hull situation made my piss boil.
only drastic action will bring this to the attention of the media and other fans groups.
nobody in the media gives a fuck when we get 1900 tickets as opposed to 3000.
it will sure get a mention when a club refuses allocations for these matches or fans walk out in protest,that is not the kind of thing the premier league would like to beam around the world!.
at least half the matches seem to be subjected to all this petty shite.
something drastic has to happen before this really does become the standard.
for me,without the away days it’s not even worth a season ticket and may just jack it all in.
Any news on the new date yet? Want to get the day off sorted and book my train.
Kev,
If there were rumours of a new date would you book a train booked just on rumour? And if it was confirmed, you’d see it on Utd and West Ham websites and wouldn’t need to ask here.
In short, and as has been said a hundred time, club waiting for Madrid game to get more of an understanding of fixture congestion first.
Oli
Oli i was only asking because I can’t understand the delay the new date should of been sorted the tuesday or weds after beating reading I think most reds would like it to be asap because we don’t want west ham away arsenal away and possible champions league quaters and fa cup semis all to pay for in april.
Ultimiately the reason given was the obvious one. I doubt very much we’re the only fanbase in the Prem to have people aisle blocking. Every away game i’ve been to… as soon as others come in they walk as close as possible to the front & just stand. Stewards never ask people to show tickets & take seats.. The only game where i saw good seating behaviour was at Newcastle. Probably because everyone wanted to crowd Youngy at the back.
I don’t think it’s an issue which can be resolved quickly, why don’t the club ever make statements frequently on their site stating the reasons for the loss of allocation? It’s frustrating! Never mind.
Kev, I think the club secretary and Fergie both know those possible factors. Funnily enough. However, United do not dictate the date to other parties. Has to be agreed with West Ham, PL and TV too, and essentially TV tell us when it is not not vice versa.
Addy, aisle blocking is not really that common, not least as there are only a handful of clubs who tend to sell out their allocations, and then only a number of those stand. Most fans at OT sit these days for example, and when fans sit people don’t tend to be in the aisles as they stand out more. And while aisle blocking is an issue that leads to reduced allocations at a few clubs, our problem is more actually general bad behaviour such as assualting stewards. It irritates me that we are collectively punished for the actions of a few morons, but that’s the way it is.
Unfortunately plenty of midweeks to choose from now. I guess the game will now be rearranged shortly.
Is there a date for a potential replay if we draw with Chelsea ?
According to the premier league twitter feed West Ham game is Weds 17th April 7.45
Date confirmed on PL website;
http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/news/news/2012-13/mar/date-changes-for-barclays-premier-league-matches-130313.html
Easter monday 12:30 kick off and west ham weds 17 april 19:45 both confirmed, any ideas for west ham ballot when it will take place now
Ballot still cannot go ahead as club still awaiting allocation & prices, they are hoping to have that information by friday.